Comments on: The Assemblies of God and Alcohol http://faithinformed.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/the-assemblies-of-god-and-alcohol/ Thoughts on God, family, and work Sun, 08 Nov 2009 10:16:44 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Jason http://faithinformed.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/the-assemblies-of-god-and-alcohol/#comment-173 Jason Sun, 02 Aug 2009 04:33:36 +0000 http://faithinformed.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/the-assemblies-of-god-and-alcohol/#comment-173 Great paper. I have to say that for most of my life my stance on alcohol consumption was very staunch. yet, I have come to realize that those beliefs were instilled via tradition and not necessarily by scriptural evidence. I think on debatable matters such as the moderate and responsible consumption of alcohol it is best left to the Holy Spirit's leading. Some may feel checked or rebuked, others may not. It is best left to that believer and their relationship with God. I loved the example you gave about pornography and internet usage.I guess since infidelity and pornography have ruined so many families and individuals' lives the best thing to do would be advocating a position of total abstinence from sex altogether. Another interesting point to note is the level of obesity in both congregations and church leadership. I'm no scholar, but I seem to recall some strong Biblical warnings against gluttony. But, alas that is the one vice we Christians seem to allow ourselves. What it all boils down to is a turning away from sound Biblical doctrine and instead relying on church tradition as our mainstay. I'm in no way advocating moral relativism; there are definitely practices that are obviously sinful and should be displayed as such. But concerning alcohol consumption, if even the moderate, limited consumption is inherently sinful then we have a major problem on our hands in light of the example set forth by Jesus who was perfect and knew no sin. Great paper. I have to say that for most of my life my stance on alcohol consumption was very staunch. yet, I have come to realize that those beliefs were instilled via tradition and not necessarily by scriptural evidence. I think on debatable matters such as the moderate and responsible consumption of alcohol it is best left to the Holy Spirit’s leading. Some may feel checked or rebuked, others may not. It is best left to that believer and their relationship with God. I loved the example you gave about pornography and internet usage.I guess since infidelity and pornography have ruined so many families and individuals’ lives the best thing to do would be advocating a position of total abstinence from sex altogether. Another interesting point to note is the level of obesity in both congregations and church leadership. I’m no scholar, but I seem to recall some strong Biblical warnings against gluttony. But, alas that is the one vice we Christians seem to allow ourselves. What it all boils down to is a turning away from sound Biblical doctrine and instead relying on church tradition as our mainstay. I’m in no way advocating moral relativism; there are definitely practices that are obviously sinful and should be displayed as such. But concerning alcohol consumption, if even the moderate, limited consumption is inherently sinful then we have a major problem on our hands in light of the example set forth by Jesus who was perfect and knew no sin.

]]> By: Brad http://faithinformed.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/the-assemblies-of-god-and-alcohol/#comment-171 Brad Fri, 31 Jul 2009 18:40:34 +0000 http://faithinformed.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/the-assemblies-of-god-and-alcohol/#comment-171 Paul - I really couldn't agree more. You took words out of my mouth but I wanted to be sure I wasn't the only one seeing things that way! Thanks for your input. It's sad to see kids who came up in our church have to have their wedding receptions somewhere else because of this stance on dancing. Thanks again! Paul – I really couldn’t agree more. You took words out of my mouth but I wanted to be sure I wasn’t the only one seeing things that way! Thanks for your input. It’s sad to see kids who came up in our church have to have their wedding receptions somewhere else because of this stance on dancing. Thanks again!

]]> By: Brian http://faithinformed.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/the-assemblies-of-god-and-alcohol/#comment-170 Brian Fri, 31 Jul 2009 18:04:09 +0000 http://faithinformed.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/the-assemblies-of-god-and-alcohol/#comment-170 Good luck getting the AG to make any changes on this issue - it's not going to happen. Not that you are necessarily but still - they aren't going to bend. It doesn't help the situation either that many in the Reformed camp happlily head to the local Pub for a pint after the service. I am pessimistic they'll ever be any unity on this issue. Really great paper by the way too. Really great. Good luck getting the AG to make any changes on this issue – it’s not going to happen. Not that you are necessarily but still – they aren’t going to bend. It doesn’t help the situation either that many in the Reformed camp happlily head to the local Pub for a pint after the service. I am pessimistic they’ll ever be any unity on this issue. Really great paper by the way too. Really great.

]]> By: faithinformed http://faithinformed.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/the-assemblies-of-god-and-alcohol/#comment-169 faithinformed Mon, 27 Jul 2009 23:51:50 +0000 http://faithinformed.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/the-assemblies-of-god-and-alcohol/#comment-169 Brad, Thank you for stopping by and posting your thoughts. Concerning the paper on dancing, I don't actually have much to say. My initial reaction was to laugh because I forgot we even had one on dancing. Because I haven't read it in detail in a long time, I can only make a few general remarks. First, keep in mind that there is no obligation on anyone's part to abide by the position papers. That's why they are position papers and not "fundamental truths." So your church is under no AG constitutional obligation to prohibit dancing. Second, what is in the constitution and bylaws is a prohibition of legalism. I'm not sure how the AG leaders attempt to square that prohibition with their own position papers, but at first glance, the remarks they make about dancing are about as legalistic as one could get. (It's as if someone watched Foot Loose, sided with the dad/pastor, and then wrote a paper to try and get the whole fellowship to think the same thing.) In general, the same attitude towards dancing is adopted as the one toward alcohol. Some people sin because of it, so no one should participate. Of course, as I point out in my paper, that same reasoning would mean that no one should use the internet or become a businessperson. It's laughable to think that dancing at a wedding reception in the church is morally/spiritually equivalent to going to a club where people are clearly focused upon arousing each other's sexual desires. The decision is yours to make, but I'd encourage you to play your part in helping our fellowship actually be consistent with its own policy and get away from legalism. Best to you, Paul Brad,

Thank you for stopping by and posting your thoughts. Concerning the paper on dancing, I don’t actually have much to say. My initial reaction was to laugh because I forgot we even had one on dancing. Because I haven’t read it in detail in a long time, I can only make a few general remarks. First, keep in mind that there is no obligation on anyone’s part to abide by the position papers. That’s why they are position papers and not “fundamental truths.” So your church is under no AG constitutional obligation to prohibit dancing. Second, what is in the constitution and bylaws is a prohibition of legalism. I’m not sure how the AG leaders attempt to square that prohibition with their own position papers, but at first glance, the remarks they make about dancing are about as legalistic as one could get. (It’s as if someone watched Foot Loose, sided with the dad/pastor, and then wrote a paper to try and get the whole fellowship to think the same thing.)

In general, the same attitude towards dancing is adopted as the one toward alcohol. Some people sin because of it, so no one should participate. Of course, as I point out in my paper, that same reasoning would mean that no one should use the internet or become a businessperson. It’s laughable to think that dancing at a wedding reception in the church is morally/spiritually equivalent to going to a club where people are clearly focused upon arousing each other’s sexual desires.

The decision is yours to make, but I’d encourage you to play your part in helping our fellowship actually be consistent with its own policy and get away from legalism.

Best to you,
Paul

]]> By: Brad http://faithinformed.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/the-assemblies-of-god-and-alcohol/#comment-168 Brad Mon, 27 Jul 2009 18:32:10 +0000 http://faithinformed.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/the-assemblies-of-god-and-alcohol/#comment-168 Great paper on the alcohol subject! I believe you give the AG, and all of us, some very valid thinking points and I hope that they will consider your input. Now, the real reason I'm writing. What are your thoughts on the AG stance on dancing? I read the their stance at: http://www.ag.org/top/Beliefs/charctr_13_social_dancing.cfm and feel that it takes the same lines as their alcohol stance. Very liberal in their scriptural references and damning of ANY dancing. I'm asking in support of a kid from our church who wants to have his reception at our church building, but wants to allow family and guests to dance. His thought is that the music would be filtered to keep out anything that would be in poor taste. I’d like to talk to leadership about this but want to gather as much info as I can first. Does anyone have thoughts on this??? Thanks! Great paper on the alcohol subject! I believe you give the AG, and all of us, some very valid thinking points and I hope that they will consider your input. Now, the real reason I’m writing. What are your thoughts on the AG stance on dancing? I read the their stance at: http://www.ag.org/top/Beliefs/charctr_13_social_dancing.cfm and feel that it takes the same lines as their alcohol stance. Very liberal in their scriptural references and damning of ANY dancing. I’m asking in support of a kid from our church who wants to have his reception at our church building, but wants to allow family and guests to dance. His thought is that the music would be filtered to keep out anything that would be in poor taste. I’d like to talk to leadership about this but want to gather as much info as I can first. Does anyone have thoughts on this??? Thanks!

]]> By: faithinformed http://faithinformed.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/the-assemblies-of-god-and-alcohol/#comment-162 faithinformed Mon, 06 Jul 2009 20:56:07 +0000 http://faithinformed.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/the-assemblies-of-god-and-alcohol/#comment-162 CS, I am currently a licensed minister with the AG, but do not serve at a church (instead, I teach a Christian university in Toronto). I agree that it might take a bit of work to change the current AG stance regarding alcohol, but I also think the truth is worth the fight. Any time our fellowship teaches falsehood, I think we ought to do what we can to correct that teaching. Given the nature of most Council meetings, I'm also not convinced that such a discussion would impede the Gospel. Thanks for stopping by and sharing your thoughts, I always appreciate the discussion. CS,

I am currently a licensed minister with the AG, but do not serve at a church (instead, I teach a Christian university in Toronto).

I agree that it might take a bit of work to change the current AG stance regarding alcohol, but I also think the truth is worth the fight. Any time our fellowship teaches falsehood, I think we ought to do what we can to correct that teaching. Given the nature of most Council meetings, I’m also not convinced that such a discussion would impede the Gospel.

Thanks for stopping by and sharing your thoughts, I always appreciate the discussion.

]]> By: Certified Sipper http://faithinformed.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/the-assemblies-of-god-and-alcohol/#comment-161 Certified Sipper Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:23:15 +0000 http://faithinformed.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/the-assemblies-of-god-and-alcohol/#comment-161 You say that you will continue to serve. Are you holding credentials and do you serve on the staff of an AG church? As far as where I stand, I do disagree with the stringent abstinance rule. Although, I think to fight this "stand" in the AG will probably do more damage than good in the long run. I would hate to think that I impeded the progress of the Gospel, because I wanted to have a Council meeting to argue this point. You say that you will continue to serve. Are you holding credentials and do you serve on the staff of an AG church? As far as where I stand, I do disagree with the stringent abstinance rule. Although, I think to fight this “stand” in the AG will probably do more damage than good in the long run. I would hate to think that I impeded the progress of the Gospel, because I wanted to have a Council meeting to argue this point.

]]> By: faithinformed http://faithinformed.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/the-assemblies-of-god-and-alcohol/#comment-154 faithinformed Wed, 22 Apr 2009 19:58:30 +0000 http://faithinformed.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/the-assemblies-of-god-and-alcohol/#comment-154 Matthew, My approach is to continue in the AG even though I think they are wrong about this. Since I've made various officials in Springfield aware of my view, if they choose to kick me out of it then that will be their decision. Until then I continue serving the fellowship in ways that I can and continue enjoying a fine Scotch or nice wheat beer on a beautiful summer day. If you have comments about the specific paper, I'd be happy to hear them. Matthew,

My approach is to continue in the AG even though I think they are wrong about this. Since I’ve made various officials in Springfield aware of my view, if they choose to kick me out of it then that will be their decision. Until then I continue serving the fellowship in ways that I can and continue enjoying a fine Scotch or nice wheat beer on a beautiful summer day. If you have comments about the specific paper, I’d be happy to hear them.

]]> By: matthew lipscomb http://faithinformed.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/the-assemblies-of-god-and-alcohol/#comment-152 matthew lipscomb Tue, 21 Apr 2009 21:37:55 +0000 http://faithinformed.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/the-assemblies-of-god-and-alcohol/#comment-152 thank you for having the courage to do this. I've grown up in the AG and now feel that I am not qualified to serve in any way the church that I love because I cannot accept this belief as exegetical, rather it is patently isogetical. I believe that the day will come when the Assemblies has the courage to realign themselves with the scripture. I have prayed about doing something similar to this - but I think that it has to start with local pastors. I look forward to reading you paper. In Christ, matthew lipscomb thank you for having the courage to do this. I’ve grown up in the AG and now feel that I am not qualified to serve in any way the church that I love because I cannot accept this belief as exegetical, rather it is patently isogetical. I believe that the day will come when the Assemblies has the courage to realign themselves with the scripture. I have prayed about doing something similar to this – but I think that it has to start with local pastors. I look forward to reading you paper.

In Christ,

matthew lipscomb

]]> By: faithinformed http://faithinformed.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/the-assemblies-of-god-and-alcohol/#comment-59 faithinformed Wed, 05 Dec 2007 21:31:16 +0000 http://faithinformed.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/the-assemblies-of-god-and-alcohol/#comment-59 Thanks for the comments. What I think really bothers me is that many people figure out that the scare tactics are just that. Once that happens, they have reasons to think that the whole thing was a scare tactic and it becomes much easier to just ignore all Biblical principles. Instead, we should recognize that here too the Spirit must guide us. Thanks for the comments. What I think really bothers me is that many people figure out that the scare tactics are just that. Once that happens, they have reasons to think that the whole thing was a scare tactic and it becomes much easier to just ignore all Biblical principles. Instead, we should recognize that here too the Spirit must guide us.

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